Sunday, July 11, 2010

Empire vs Lizardmen 2400 points - 8th Edition!

@ Plastic Legions HQ -7/10


Lots of Terrain was awesome!, mysterious terrain rules?, not so much we dropped them.


With our new 528 page rulebooks in hand Steve and I played another game of the new 8th Edition of Warhammer Fantasy battles. This time at 2400 points as, the increases needed in Infantry make you run out of points really fast and I just don't think the old standards of 2000 or 2250 are going to be in favor for very much longer. Our overall opinion after this game is once again, the game has totally changed. After soundly beating Steve for the 1st time ever against his Lizards..he even said " I have to totally relearn how to play" that's comment of itself is pretty indicative to the new rules. Armies and the players themselves are going to be changing drastically over the next couple months and I'll say it again- if you are a fan of Warhammer, "the game", "the world" in its macro terms you will love this! but if you are really just a fan of competitive Warhammer in 6th/7th edition and its nuances..I'll probably be seeing you on the tables playing something else.

Game setup was 2400 points and I rolled a wopping 9 pieces of terrain, there was no Mysterious terrain on the board. That's a house rule because we think it sucks, I think you will find the limiting or elimination of mysterious terrain very common in upcoming indy events. to be clear we played with terrain rules, just no mysterious effects.


Empire List- (note the changes in comments after 2 games, and some rules I missed last time have change my opinions on some units)

General- Armor of Silver Steel, Holy Relic, GW, Pistol
Captain BSB- Sword of Sigismund
Battle Wizard- Level 2, Lore of Fire, Seal of Destruction
Battle Wizard- Level 1, Lore of Beasts, Rod of Power
Warrior Priest- Armor of Meteoric Iron, , GW

(note: added a second, level 1 Wizard this time, wanted to try Lore of Beasts for default spell alone as a unit buff, The Rod of Power is waste of points as with the high casting values, I never came close to having any dice left, maybe with a couple level 4's it would be worth it.
overall my character were solid)


30 Swordsmen FC w/ War Banner
15 Swordsmen Detachment
(didn't fair as well this, game as last and I am still second guess detachment choices and overall usefulness in this edition...I will always run these guys the question is what detachment and configuration)

30 Free Company FC
(still a great choice at 170 points, although can definitely NOT handle a 3 x 3 unit of Monstrous infantry)

30 Flagellants, in 3 x 10 Horde formation.
( unstoppable, insane amount of attacks with the ability to martyr and being unbreakable
they are now better than the Steam Tank, yes you read the right, this was my biggest threat
ranking over 1300 points in kills including the Slann!)

10 Crossbows, Musician
10 Handgunners, Musician
(at 85 points and being able to reform in movement and shoot in the shooting phase a much needed change, great!)


5 Knights, Musician , Great Weapons
( still good as protection for my BSB, but dont think they can take a infantry block alone!)

10 Inner Circle Knights, FC w/Steel Standard
(much better than last game, with the back rank striking they are really now, the hammer..ever more so, with Warrior Priest and Great Weapons, the steel standard really help with a potential low dice roll on the charge)


5 Pistoliers, Outrider with Repeater Pistol
(Still good, but not as good as last game with the addition that pistols now suffer range penalites!! ouch..so up to 6" as normal..6"-12" -1 to hit...make Pistoliers with multiple shots hit on 6's at 12". (5's for the champ)...not a good as I thought they'd be...but still good)

Great Cannon, Mortar,
(both were great but the mortar didnt do as well as it should have, mainly because of what I was shooting at, "indirect fire" is a great option thou)


Lizardmen List

Slann Mage Priest, ,Level 4, General, BSB, Focus of Mystery, Focused Rumination, Forbidden Rod, Lore of Life.

(Still the King of Magic just dont expect those Temple Guard to protect you after you inevitably miscast, the Lore of Life and the Forbidden Rod..is an awesome Slann combo as he has 5 wounds
We both think thou running him alone in a "High State of Consciousness" is the way to go thou)

Scar Vet x 2 , various trinkets, 1 had the initiative 10 weapon.
(still awesome combat hero's)

20 Saurus Warriors w/ spears and Shields, FC X2
(Great Infantry but the argument for a unit HW&S for the parry save is their no doubt..I'm definitely building one myself)

20 Temple Guard FC,
(totally marginalized in this edition, cannot hold thier own against strong units in horde formation, what used to an impenetrable wall, collapsed like a house of cards at the sheer number of attacks a strong horde can spit out with there needed 150MM frontage @ 16 points
a piece these guy are only if your doing a theme/fluffy game or maybe run them solo without a Slann as a small unit elites to engage lesser infantry)

10 Skinks x 2- Skirmishers
(non factor this game so no comment..assume they are as useful as they were however skirmishing changes make redirection..way more difficult)

6 Kroxigors
( Monstrous Infantry, is were its at...I pounded these guys with magic and shooting and they near about collapsed my whole left flank before I took them out..watch out!)

4 Terradons
( new line of sight rules or not..these guys are shooting fodder and barely made past there vanguard move before being shot to pieces...I had some bad dice that gave them an extra turn
still good, but not the factor they were in 7th editon)

Salmander with 3 handlers x 2
( with changes to Skirmishers and that they can now march and shoot makes these guys better than ever)

8 Chameleons
(poisons still a great choice, got killed too early to comment)


another shot of the battle lines......

Brief Recap

Games again go so much quicker..first turn I charge my IC Knights thru the woods at the Chameleons I can see on the other side..I lose my Champion due to failing my "dangerous terrain' check going thru the wood, but wipe them out...I get a few other shooting kills. on Steve's turn..he moves the Slann over the hill and casts "throne of Vines" which I wisely drop my "seal of destruction" on, he then goes for the big kill ( my General, over the conservative kill , my horde of Flaggies) the Slann drops the "dwellers below" on my Generals unit but also miscasts! (were throne of vines..had I let it go would have saved him on a 2+) "Dwellers" does 17 kills including my Warrior Priest of the 32 guys in my unit but also kills 8 Temple Guard..my next turn my Flaggies charge the Slaan..crush the TG to a man..and put him on Snake eyes for the break, he fails with cold blooded and the reroll and is gone after only 1 magic phase. They also overun (being 10 wide) into the flank of his unit of Saurus crushing them the next turn. I kill a bunch of other stuff as well the next couple turns and by turn 3 the game is pretty much over but we play it out...Steve's Kroxigor..raise some hell crushing my Free Company and my General (who'd moved over there after my swordsmen got decimated but again we forgot about Steadfast so I would have held but broke) He also takes out my BSB and Knights who can't take a charge from 20 Saurus with Scar Vet. My IC Knights plow into the flank of those Saurus on my turn...and break and kill them (although we forgot they were stubborn due to ranks, it didnt really matter. by that point I had killed all his support and the Krox..and even with my Knights and those Saurus still in combat, I had alot of support my Flaggie horde coming up the rear) Steve conceded at the top his turn 5.


Unbreakable Horde on the Flank?...probably the worst potential outcome for anybody.

Lessons Learned-

Empire- with two big wins in both games I've played, the Empire is looking good. Flagellants are now crazy scary and the Greatswords are again now looking viable, Ranked unit with a Warrior Priest and the Razor Standard (look for me to try them my next game) I havent found the Block/ Detachment combo that's quite right yet..but all options other than the Steam Tank (again I've changed my mind here, even at the FAQ'd T10 @300 points just isn't worth it over say Flaggies and Greatswords) Empire is all about Infantry and Artillery with magic support.

Lizardmen- The kick ass old MSU Lizards list doesnt seem so viable...blocks of troops, a solo Slaan and Stegadons seem the way to go...1 normal Stegadon over those Temple Guard, and more expansive Slann that could have traveled alone would have give Steve and extra 70 points to play with and a Stegadon on his left flank with his Krox on his right would have given me fits.
I look forward to getting my lizards on the table..and I have no doubt Steve's will be back for vengeance.

13 comments:

Greg said...

I was really attracted to this new edition by the mysterious terrain rules. Why don't you guys like them?

John@Plastic Legions said...

Hi Greg,
it's just too much with amount of terrain on the board now..per the rules..every piece of the 9 pieces of terrain on the board this game could have random effects, personally I find that just too distracting from the actual game and it has the potential to have too much impact..1 or 2 pieces I am ok with..there is already so much going on with the new rules..perhaps in time we will warm up to it.

Conspyre said...

I was initially concerned about Mysterious Terrain, but after looking more closely at it, I'm significantly less worried. What it really does is make forests and rivers (the only terrain features that can be Mysterious) remain something that you want to think twice before wandering in to, not because they slow you down as much as they did in the last edition, but more because they might eat you. I think it's also going to encourage people to model (and buy, of course), more buildings, hills, walls, etc, rather than just plunking down forest after forest, which is a change that I think will make battlefields much more dynamic. I would love to see an event where each player is required to provide one of the new special terrain features to suit their army, I know I've already started pondering how I'm going to build the Dwarven Brewhouse.

Check out the Swift Reform rule on page 95. Units that reform still count as moving, so Crossbows and Handguns still can't do anything else the turn they fire. (Crossbows are even specifically called out in the rule.) Still have to be very careful about where you position those heavy shooters, but firing in two ranks is HUGE for them. Makes my Thunderers much happier (and efficient).

I'm surprised you're running Flagellants that big rather than just using Free Company. Still got 2 attacks, they're Core, 50% cheaper, and for the points you save, you could pick up a couple of ranks to keep them Horde-y longer.

On the whole, I think it'll be interesting to see most people adding 10-15 models to their main combat blocks. I'm still working my way through the rulebook with a fine-toothed comb, making sure that I don't miss anything (and to get fodder for some good rules analysis on the blog!). When you look at a unit list, and think "30? He's running a unit that tiny?", you know something has seriously changed.

Conspyre said...

I was initially concerned about Mysterious Terrain, but after looking more closely at it, I'm significantly less worried. What it really does is make forests and rivers (the only terrain features that can be Mysterious) remain something that you want to think twice before wandering in to, not because they slow you down as much as they did in the last edition, but more because they might eat you. I think it's also going to encourage people to model (and buy, of course), more buildings, hills, walls, etc, rather than just plunking down forest after forest, which is a change that I think will make battlefields much more dynamic. I would love to see an event where each player is required to provide one of the new special terrain features to suit their army, I know I've already started pondering how I'm going to build the Dwarven Brewhouse.

Check out the Swift Reform rule on page 95. Units that reform still count as moving, so Crossbows and Handguns still can't do anything else the turn they fire. (Crossbows are even specifically called out in the rule.) Still have to be very careful about where you position those heavy shooters, but firing in two ranks is HUGE for them. Makes my Thunderers much happier (and efficient).

I'm surprised you're running Flagellants that big rather than just using Free Company. Still got 2 attacks, they're Core, 50% cheaper, and for the points you save, you could pick up a couple of ranks to keep them Horde-y longer.

On the whole, I think it'll be interesting to see most people adding 10-15 models to their main combat blocks. I'm still working my way through the rulebook with a fine-toothed comb, making sure that I don't miss anything (and to get fodder for some good rules analysis on the blog!). When you look at a unit list, and think "30? He's running a unit that tiny?", you know something has seriously changed.

John@Plastic Legions said...

ugggg...Bill you just pissed in my cheerios but you're dead right about Swift reform..I dont know how we missed that...as for the Flaggies
is all about S5 and martyring...that's the key...I'm running 30 Free Company too but they have a very different role.

Conspyre said...

Right, forgot about the flails. S5 for the first round is pretty keen, definitely more hitting power than most tarpit units. The Martyr rule is also pretty sweet. No available Musician is going to make them slow to maneuver, especially with the changes to lateral movement, but that's a hard threat to ignore. You can still get 58 Free Company with full command for the same price, though...

I have considered a career as a professional cheerio-pisser, for now I just settle for destroying people on the Warseer rules forums. :) It's always tough with a new ruleset to catch all the little things, especially once the mind starts racing with the new and shiny.

Lord Azaghul said...

Ah it’s a shame you don’t care for the mysterious terrain. I think the biggest impacts with rivers and forest are 1) constant rules, you can’t be steadfast in a wood, and you don’t get rank bonus’s in a river, AND the psycological impact. I”ve found newer players are almost terrifed to enter a wood or cross the river until they know what it is! Do you guys roll for the forest, or just play it has a ‘normal’ forest at all times?
I do see how the terrain rules can be a bit overwhelming but the first thing I did was I got my book was to make a nice little terrain cheat sheet and tape it to the back of my book (massive time saver).

@ Conspyre: I run dwarfs and yesterday we played a nice little ‘allied’ game. Long story short. A’dwarven brewery’ ended up in my deployment zone, and wow. Even though my block o’warriors was killed to the man my thane just kept hacking up heroes and units champs until the end of the game!

John@Plastic Legions said...

@ Jon,

We just played all forests as "normal" so still making dangerous terrain checks, etc when necessary...I'm sure over time we'll start working it in bit in...for me the amount of terrain + all having effects is too game changing..we'll have to see if this is embraced as the norm or marginalized for public events..I can roll either way.

Thomas said...

So, regarding the Lizardmen... Would you suggest Spears or Hand Weapons?

Conspyre said...

It's a tricky question, that. Hand Weapon/Shield grants you a 6+ Ward save instead of the additional +1 to the save from last edition, while spears get you more attacks as long as you're not charging. I would say that it depends on the role you're using them for- defensive troops that are in the list to hold the line are absolutely going to love the extra attacks from spears. With the relatively high cost of Saurus Warriors, on the other hand, and their role in the list as the heavier hitters, the extra save is going to come up more often, since you want them charging.

Thomas said...

So, I guess it's hand weapon and shields then... :)

Schiltgen said...

John,

I am playing 2 games of 8th Edition this Friday night, both at 2500 points. I will email you with a full report after I've played. :) Flames of War does seem to be calling louder and louder, though.

Jeff

SDartist said...

yes I know I am commenting on a post from over 4 months ago.

His Temple Guard did not need to roll snake eyes, they are Stubborn 9 as long as there is a Slann in the unit.

Could have been a game changer.

Cheers

 

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