Sunday, April 25, 2010

Talking- WFB 8th Edition.

Post game yesterday, I printed out the current crop of rumors on Warseer and Steve and I went over them as I let the camera roll. Steve's a top tier local player and Tourney Organizer, who most recently ran the "Size Matters" WFB event at Adepticon this year. Steve's hobby blog is Oden's Tales..where you can check out what he's up to. We've both been following the 8th rumors very closely and we have both been privy to people with an inside track. The reality is we don't know anymore then the next guy posting rumors somewhere on the internet. We are just making logical assumptions based on what we know about GW's motivations and intent with 8th Edition. Of course, we are both students of game who play ALOT of Warhammer and like to make our own conclusions. Below is the gist of our conversation saturday, paraphased where necessary to keep it short.


From Warseer, the most reliable rumours

* Army construction is moving back to percentages.
* Strength in Depth/ Stepping up (models may fight in 2 ranks)-
* Crush attack for larger creatures-
* 40mm models moving to 3 model-wide ranks.
* Multiple objective driven scenarios in the rulebook
* All non-english rulebooks are moving to inches.
* Power dice aren’t generated by the number of spellcasters. The pool is decided by 2D6. Magic users add their magic level to the score rolled.

All Wizards have a chance to generate more power dice.
* All missile units fire in two ranks (not just High Elves). Missile units will not gain a rank when shooting from hills.
* Autobreaking from fear or terror is gone.
* Combats are strictly decided in initiative order.

John: I going with 100% that this is all solid, the devil is in the details
Steve: I hope overall alot of this is true, I'm pretty confident, in general it is.


Warhammer 8th Ed Rulebook to be released July 10th
500+ pages (probably 528)

John- 500 pages is as big as GW's hard cover hobby and reference guide, that's one unwieldly book
Steve - I'm not so sure about that, it doesnt make sense financially, at $60 for 528 color pages
John- yeah if it was $120 I could see that, but they arent going to put out a $120 core rulebook, it's not in line with past business model.
Steve- Well, we know they'll be multiple versions
John- No doubt.

Possibly going to get the pdf erratas for all armies on July 6th-

Steve- My bet is July 6th errata is going to be movement changes Centimeters to Inch conversions only for the EU
John- there may some generic army errata in the new rulebook but GW isn't one to override army books in the core rules, so it what is in there
as army errata is going to be very generic.
Steve- I expect necessary army book errata will be released separately

Detailed Rumors-

ARMY SELECTION

* Army construction is moving back to percentages.
This is looking more like 25% max characters, 25% min core, 25% max special and 25% max rare (anonymous source, but trustworthy ) The 25%

characters includes mounts.

Edit. Just as I thought this part was looking certain, there have been some rumours/ sources saying 25% max characters, 25% min core, 50% max

special and 15% max rare. I will edit one out as it become clear.

John- well know this happening, just not which is exact detail
Steve- I think its latter..
John- I've read about specific things done on behalf of High Elves, 50% special covers all the bases.

* Categories for core/special/rare are remaining.

John- I think Slots stay as anti spam measure.
Steve- I think Slots are going away, percentages make them uneccessary, its fits with Streamlining the game.

* There *may* be something to prevent spamming

Steve- I fear, and I hope it is not true, That they are going to use kill points, to control unit spam.
John- Kill points are definitely currently sitting in the "discredit rumor" pile
Steve- I hope so.
John- That why I think slots stay
Steve- Maybe, I am not so sure.


* There will be a system wide errata to clear up issues for each army.

John- Inevitably, they have to do it...you know all kinds of shit is going to come up.
Steve- Oh it will get done, just don't expect to be timely.
John- LOL!



MAGIC

* Power dice aren’t generated by the number of spellcasters. The pool is decided by 2D6. Magic users add their magic level to the score rolled.

All Wizards have a chance to generate more power dice. - Avian
(edit: This could be 1 PD for lvl 1/2 and 2 PD for lvl 3/4).
Example: 2D6 roll gives you 3 and 6. You have 1 level 2 and 1 level 4. Power dice =9+1+2 = 12

Steve- I've heard/ differently Roll 2d6 and then add a D6 for each wizard as extra PD
John- That's sounds like a ton of power dice, potentially, what about adding your level to die generation roll
Steve- If you look at the Beastmen book, Casting values are way higher than any other book, this is good indicator of where this is going if you adding your level to casting roll, your level two now basically casts the cheap spell at a "7" instead of a "5"..I'm sure you're going to add your level to the casting roll.
John- Damn, that's a good point. some of these caveats are going to apply, and the new magic phase is definitely going to wacky. I've seen no concrete mention of the Magic Phase now being First before the movement phase, this does goes along with supposed supportive nature of the new magic phase and I've heard this before but its not in the current crop of rumors.

* Giving irresistible force a downside
* Double 6 = a miscast
* Making miscasts much more devastating.
* Something rumoured is carrying over power dice, but holding too many could lead to a ‘magic backlash’. Wizard will recieve wounds or hits if he didn't use the excess power-dice (than originally allocated) at end of the turn.
* All the book Lores will have more supportive spells than they have now, and will all be getting a major overhaul. Each lore to get a mega spell.
* Spells can be chosen, not rolled for.

Steve- Not sure about any of that, but the way I think its going to work, there is going to be a downside for holding too many power dice.
John- Makes sense, yeah. not sure about this "Rod of Power" style carry over thou.
Steve - "Spells being chosen, not rolled" is HUGE, I'm not so sure about that.
John- we'll they better come up with better spells if people can choose so there is some variety.
Steve- I think "IF they do it, spell 1-3 will all that will be eligible for level 1's and 2's, The upper spells would only be available to level 3's and 4's..
John- Ok that ties back to 25% character thing too, we are going to see less Characters and alot more support characters. alot of armies will be running one uber character.
Steve- yep.


And the other rumours:

* There's no limit to the number of dice used to cast a spell, by any level of caster.
* If a wizard fails to cast (not counting dispels) twice in a row he miscasts
* Dispel scroll only adding dispel dice (+2 dice to the dispel dice pool once per game). (edit - possibly speculation)
* Dispel attempts to be made by specific wizards (presumable your casting level is beneficial for dispelling spells)
* A higher chance of miscast with multiple casters.
* If a wizard fail to cast a spell he can't cast other spells in the same phase.

John- I've heard all this too, either here or from other places.
Steve- I think some of these are crap, however the 2nd one would limit VC magic spam
so it's possible.
John- probably, I think the Dispel Scroll being additional dice is for sure..makes sense
with the proposed system.

COMBAT

Fighting in 2 ranks

* Units fight in 2 ranks all the time, with their full quota of attacks, and with any special rules they have.
* Spears may be +1 rank as normal.
* Spearelves may fight with an additional rank as normal (citzen levy).
* Cavalry still only fight in 1 rank.
* This is the same regardless of which side they are attacked on.


Stepping up. – Harry/ Avian / other people

* Casualties are strictly removed from the back.

Steve- This in its simplicity is the way its going to work IMO.
John- Less complicated than this 2nd Rank, gets one attack stuff.
Steve- This is streamlined, your going to have alot more wounds coming at you, Static Combat res is going to less of an impact, due to more wounds.
John- With always hitting at initative..I now have no reason (for my Empire) to ever charge Chaos Warriors. Extra hand weapon, frenzy, thats 40 attacks base!
(we then talk about a mythical combat of my block of empire swordsmen with two character charging initative Chaos Warriors)
Steve- Well lets do the math, 40 attacks hitting on 3's, wounding on 2's....you'll take probably 20 wounds, but your getting full armor saves not that Strength 4 has no negative modifier...you will on avg take 10 kills from that assault, you've got characters and you full allotment attacks back and the Warriors only have a 4+ armor save...your character will kill probably 3, you 8 troops should get 2 or 3 as well. it will come down who has the better static res.
John- just like now- yep
Steve- That's why this random move added to charge is a big deal, you'll need to plan and set things up better. It's going to make for a better game
less relying on the math, more on the tactics
John- yep. I do like the fact Chaos Warriors now become the bad mofo's they are supposed to be. I just don't want to face them!. (laughs)


Horde Rule -

* Fight in 3 ranks if 10+ wide (4 with spears). - Avian.
OR Some benefit to fighting in large units, may automatically become stubborn beyond a certain unit size. – Harry - (edit) seemingly confirmed from another source).

Another edit: Seems this Horde rule may work like this:
If the unit is 10+ wide and 5 ranks deep (50+ models) the front 2 ranks may all fight, regardless of whether they are in base contact.
* Now it would explain how people have got up to 5 ranks in combat (2 front, Spears = 3, Citizen levy = 4, Horde = 5). At this stage just another rumour, but a little closer perhaps to the truth.

Steve- I'm not sure about this myself, while there might some kind of horder rule for cheap troops, I am not buying 50 attacks from spears...I think alot of these rumors got started with the video.
John- all the huge blocks 10 wide marching down the field.
Steve- 10 wide is stupid unwieldy
John- especially with up to 10 pieces of terrain on the board as rumor.
Steve- right -I think the video is all about making a nice demonstration and not so much about the new rules.
John- Not sure, alot of people would disagree.
Steve- we'll see.


Rank bonuses

* Unchanged apparently.

John- Well, this goes in line with what you are saying about combat and the horde rule, no +7 combat res for extra files 10 wide.
Steve- I'm telling you combat res is going to be secondary to wounds, you'll have static res and pysch effects supporting wounds.


One Save to ruin them all!

* Models will only ever get one save (be it ward, mundane or magical armour). No word yet on whether regeneration is included. From Alessio himself!

John- This is great IMO, I am sick of the triple save redunancy and unkilleable guys on dragons, this comes from Alessio, its probably good.
Steve- Well- I'm not sure about Alessio, because sometimes these studio guys will say something casually, someone will take it as gospel and then they will go back and playtest it a bit and then change it., but I think its great idea anyway.
John- No more flying around on your dragon taking on the whole army.
Steve- yup and you'll be facing full strike backs always now..with only 1 save...Heros on dragons will be forced into a more supportive roll or going after small units..they wont be breaking big blocks alone. You're going to have to set up you charges alot more carefully now.

40mm models

* 40mm models moving to 3 model-wide ranks. Ogre sized models are officially being put into their own size category (finally).

Crush them!

* Additional stomp/crush attacks for big infantry (ogres, trolls, etc) to represent them trampling lesser races underfoot. Bigger bonus for large creatures like giants. These are not impact hits. (edit: these could be overrun hits)


Steve- This has got to happen given some of the other rules in order to make heavy infantry like this work it over big blocks, the extra damaging attacks make them more threatening first turn, they need to be worth it.

Armour Save Modifiers

* Fewer armour save modifiers

Striking in Initiative order

* Combat will always strictly be resolved in initiative order (confirmed). Chargers do not get a bonus apparently

John- these are for sure...Strength mods start at -1 for Strength 5 and go up..this really changes the game...Great Weapons
are alot better now..although they will always strike last..even with ASF is the rumor.
Steve- That's going to piss off alot of HE players.
John - It's been said HE get alot of exclusions...

Chariots

* S7 autokill is gone. (edit: possibly not speculation)

Steve- probably..give the modifiers S7 is now -3...


MOVEMENT

Standard Movement

* Measure the distance for the furthest moving model, and perform whatever manoeuvres you wish within that lax limitation (i.e. they all move

like fast cav currently do, minus the reform). Command models will have some role to play in giving free manoeuvre as you move (Musician bonus similar to Ancient Battles?).

John- Lax Limitation?
Steve- Like War of the Ring
John- I'll have to check my WAB book for the musicians move bonus..
Steve- you'll probably get to reroll your charge die.

John- I think the biggest changes to the game are the new movement rules
Steve- following suit of the other games you can premeasure everything
John- Thats why this random charge thing is cool

(Steve and I had a discussion about how to make premeasured Artillery work, I think I figured it out, he agrees to a point but its total speculation not backed up by rumor, so I save it for another time)

Charging.

* An added 'bonus' of getting an 'extra' +D6 or +D3 inches of movement to your Movement range (presumably the D6 or D3 decided by the

category of warrior; infantry/cavalry/ogre sized).
Edit; rumoured to be:

Movement equal to or less than 6 (and not flying):
-> Basic M value + D6

Movement equal to or more than 7 (and not flying):
-> Basic M value + 2D6

John- I think we can pretty much count on this.
Steve- yeah, I'm sure too.

Heavy cavalry

* - Heavy cavalry, defined as any cavalry with a 2+ or better save, cannot march. They can double their move when charging as normal, but they

are not allowed to make a March move.
- "Medium and Fast cavalry remain the same".

Steve- I think this is BS, because it includes the standard double march, as normal, when we know your rolling for your charge move. This is an old rumor, that's still around for some reason.


SHOOTING

Armour Save Modifiers

* As it happens to be the same rumour; fewer armour save modifiers.

Fire in 2 ranks as standard.

* Missile units fire in two ranks (not just High Elves). - Harry & someone else. Missile units will not gain a rank when shooting from hills.


PSYCHOLOGY and SPECIAL RULES

Fear and Terror

* This may be

Fear +1 to Combat resolution
Terror +2 to Combat resolution
* Autobreaking from fear or terror is gone.
* Leadership tests against fear is rumoured to be going
* Fear and Terror incorporate immune to panic (with possibly a change to crumbling for undead).

John- not sure about the last two, but pysch adding to CR as modifier is for sure
Steve- psychology's going to mean alot less
John- well it levels the playing field on the "immune to pysch" armies
Steve- panic being covered by Fear and Terror only makes sense
John- Hopefully Panic still exists in some function.
Steve- not so sure.


Killing Blow

* Killing blow only against models in a similar size category or lower (large creature>ogre sized> infantry/cavalry sized)

(edit: apparently this is close, but not quite right)

Steve- this opens up a big can of worms, when it comes to mounts..does you mount count as your size when you have KB, if only the rider has it..this is going to be weird.
John- we need more info on how this works, I agree can of worms without a good tight rule.

Always Strike First

* Models with great weapons will always strike last, regardless of ASF. There is supposedly a change to the ASF rule to compensate HE a bit, not sure what yet.

(covered)


OTHER RULEBOOK CONTENTS

* Multiple objective driven scenarios in the rulebook (no kill points). See GW grand tournament and doubles scenarios.

* 15 or so missions in the new rulebook. 9 or 10 of the missions required Core units to capture objectives. Units must have banners to capture

objectives. Several missions had multiple objectives

* Victory Conditions
Interestingly something I picked up from a post was that ‘victory conditions’ have been referred to in the last 3 books, not victory points.

* A section in the rulebook dealing with specific issues that may arise during battles


Terrain

* Difficult terrain may be merged with very difficult and encompass more things (presumably more than just affecting movement).
* D6+4 cumpulsory terrain.
* Terrain will not affect the movement phase so much but will affect fleeing units, like in the War of the Ring game.
* Bonuses and hazards for terrain (such as rolling the dice to see how many people don’t make it out of the wood...).


John- I'm glad that terrain is become an important part of the game again
Steve- The 7th ed terrain rules as listed are ridiculous...you can pass at one piece.
John- as long the changes suit the movement rules in a fun way, more terrain always rules.
Steve- We've been using Adepticon style terrain placement for so long, people forget how the current terrain rules are
John- Yeah, I am all up for more.

Steve- I'm really looking forward to 8th Edition
John- Me too..although the 25% character things is scaring me with my new Lizardmen, but I'll figure it out...Looks great for the Empire thou.
Steve- looks great for alot of Armies!

4 comments:

Eryx_UK said...

There is some interesting rumours there. If even half of that it strue, it will change the game (hopefully for the better).

battlemind said...

This is the best roundup I've seen - awesome work! I'm really looking forward to 8th, because it's the perfect opportunity for GW to "reset" some of the huge army imbalances now present in the game. If 8th sucks however, I'm going to purge my entire collection.

May I use this article on my blog?

John@Plastic Legions said...

@ Battlemind

Sure man, go ahead use what you'd like..just credit plastic legions were applicable!

Don't worry around here anyway we're pretty sure all our collections are safe!

Kuffeh said...

A great round up of the rumours guys. It's also interesting to get the opinions of two veteran Fantasy players on these rumours.

Some, I think would benefit the game a lot. Others I am not so keen on - the percentages for one. I dislike this, as some races need to spend a lot of points on their characters to make them effective. I'm curious to see how GW are going to work this. I think some options are going to take some getting use too. The random charge distance for example. Though, I am looking forward to seeing a dwarf unit power 9" forward!!

 

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